Monday, February 12, 2018

Email to my nearest Labour MP

Sent a few minutes ago. meka.whaitiri@parliament.govt.nz Good morning. I am not one of your constituents as I am on the General Role in the Tukituki electorate but it does make you the closest thing to a Labour MP in my area, being Hastings City. Hence this email. Although I have no contact whatsoever with Charter Schools I am appalled at the way the students and administrators of these schools are being treated by your Government and in particular the way Minister Hipkins and Prime Minister Ardern are kowtowing to the teacher unions. I find it hard to believe that you, as a Maori Member of Parliament are not viewing what is happening in a similar way given the great success Charter Schools are having with Maori and Pacific Island students at these schools. Previously disruptive and dysfunctional students within the education system are turning out to be achievers and leaders through their association with these Charter Schools. Members of the Maori Caucus within Labour out number both the Green and NZ Party membership of the current government. You therefore have a huge opportunity to lead a change in the ideologically led destruction of these schools. Now is the time for Maori members within Labour to show some spine and cease being sycophantic followers of the leadership. Stand up and be counted and do something worthwhile for your people and your country - you and your fellow Maori MPs will be respected for such action. Sincerely

38 comments:

Anonymous said...

I count five instances of unconscious racism in your email. Surely charter schools affect New Zealanders and that the Hon Whaitiri is a New Zealand Labour politician not a Maori politician. Attempting to enlist the help of politicians based on their race and not their party affiliations is a form of racism.

Read your post again again and replace the word Maori with women or Muslim and perhaps you can see how offensive it is. One country, one people, one law.

Lord Egbut

pdm said...

If I offended you Egbut I could not care less.

If you think a bit deeper you may realise that I am from a generation where there was no such thing as racism. I spent my formative years in a Maori dominated community and I know that none of my friends from then will share your offence - nor will my Maori mate who is a first cousin to the Maori King.

Go away and troll on someone elses blog - you are a blight on No Minister.

Psycho Milt said...

I am appalled at the way the students and administrators of these schools are being treated by your Government...

You should have explained the treatment you believe the students and administrators of these schools are being subjected to, because Meka Whaitiri's probably as bemused by it as I am. What treatment? The government's said it doesn't require these services any more so won't be renewing the contracts - if that's an outrageous injustice, then the entire commercial world operates on the basis of outrageous injustice.

Now is the time for Maori members within Labour to show some spine and cease being sycophantic followers of the leadership. Stand up and be counted and do something worthwhile for your people and your country - you and your fellow Maori MPs will be respected for such action.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I'm not picturing Labour's Maaori caucus going against the rest of the party so it can win the respect of right-wing White men. Best prepare yourself for a disappointing response...

Paranormal said...

PM, the treatment pdm refers to is forcing these successful students back into a system that has already failed them.

It says a lot about the current government throwing out success just because they are ideologically opposed to it.

Psycho Milt said...

Meh - the schools themselves force some of their pupils back into the public system that supposedly "failed" them, so it can't be that big a deal. And it says a lot about the current government that they're willing to do something about the elephant in the room (poverty's impact on educational outcomes) rather that piss about with very expensive ways of helping a tiny number of the affected pupils.

Paranormal said...

And there you go PM repeating the lies.

Charter Schools are significantly cheaper to set up than public schools. They are funded at exactly the same rate as a decile three school is funded.

But lets just focus on your comment for a moment. These schools are actually making a huge difference in turning around poverty in New Zealand. They are taking those being failed by the public school system, that is those most likely to be on the worst end of the socioeconomic scale, and turning their lives around.

That's the way to fix poverty, education, attitude and work. Not redistribution of wealth. That has been tried and failed for decades. It's only made the problem worse.

That you don't care about individuals making a real difference says much about your ideology.

pdm said...

Paranormal thank you for your support.

Milt obviously you are so steeped in the `left wing' ideology perpetrated by the Unions that you, like Hipkins and Ardern, do not want to accept alternative views. Like Egbut you try to introduce race into the debate by referring to me as a white man - which I am. But I am a white man with almost 72 years on the clock and I have spent a lot of time in communities with a high proportion of Maori in them.

Therefore I consider I am knowledgeable and able to speak on these matters and I do believe that the `so called' Maori Caucus within Labour would be able to make a difference if they had the will and the wit to take a stand.

Sadly the influence of people like you Milt will stop them from doing so.

Psycho Milt said...

Charter Schools are significantly cheaper to set up than public schools. They are funded at exactly the same rate as a decile three school is funded.

They're set up in such a way that they can be presented by NACT as being cheaper than public schools, yes. In reality, the costs have come to anything up to $27,000 per pupil. There's also the fact that, because these schools spit back into the public system those pupils who'll make their KPIs look bad, the cost of their operation has to be seen as being additional to the public system, not complementary to it. On that basis they're wildly expensive.

These schools are actually making a huge difference in turning around poverty in New Zealand. They are taking those being failed by the public school system, that is those most likely to be on the worst end of the socioeconomic scale, and turning their lives around.

There are tens of thousands of kids "being failed by the public school system" and who would be more accurately described as "displaying the poor educational outcomes that go along with living in poverty." Charter schools get to cherry-pick a few hundred of the less-damaged ones out of this set and spend shitloads of taxpayer cash improving things for a subset of those few hundred. The ones who don't improve are shat out for the public system to pick up again. That's not making a "huge difference," it's making a fairly small difference, and it comes at the expense of both the public education system and the government's obligation to address the bigger influence on these pupils' educational outcomes, which is not the school they go to but the poverty they live in.

Psycho Milt said...

Like Egbut you try to introduce race into the debate...

From your post:

"I find it hard to believe that you, as a Maori Member of Parliament are not viewing what is happening in a similar way given the great success Charter Schools are having with Maori and Pacific Island students at these schools."

pdm said...

Somewhat different Milt because my understanding is that most of the attendees at Charter Schools are of Maori or Pacific Island descent. Hence it seems logical that the Maori element known collectively for some years as the Maori Caucus within Labour would be taking a keen interest in this.

Add to it that Deputy Leader (in name anyway) Kelvin Davis and Employment Minister Willie Jackson both have direct family involvements in Charter Schools my approach can hardly be called racism - the card so many on the left and right play when they do not have a logical response to an argument.

Anonymous said...

When you're in a hole Milt, dig faster.

Mick

pdm said...

anon 3.56pm

I have deleted your comment even though I have no idea if your link supported my argument or Milts.

Use a nom de plume if you want to comment on my threads.

pdm said...

Oops - sorry Mick - I wasn't referring to you - put the wrong time above.

Anonymous said...

Egbut you MUST have been a nightmare smart arse as a platoon commander , but here in the real world its fine for PDM to approach Meka Waitiri as a Maori politician , because she is a Maori politician.
If you think thats racist then presumably you think Maori wards and electorates are racist

EH of D

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... methinks you are trying to shoot the messenger coming as you from an ideological time-warp wedded to the socialist mantra of a one-glove fits all policy. Well, it doesn't and never has evidenced by the high drop-out rate from the state sector of the very kids who flock to chartered schools as offering them a way forward that the state sector can't/doesn't.

And I say that in the same context that I'm prepared to stand outside the square and argue that the proposal by Kelvin Davis for a Maori only prison might be worth a trial to see if such a prison might lead to a reduction in Maori re-offending numbers provided always that such a prison does not attract any special privileges not available to the rest of the prison population.

PM ... I fear you are right on the money with your comment that PDM's missive will have zip zero effect on the Labour Maori caucus. That caucus has a history of being doormats to be walked over by their Pakeha masters having to be satisfied, like the Greens, with occasional crumbs from on high. Nothing will change.

Anonymous said...

Racial politics when it suits the agenda. Appealing to a politician based on race, or tribe or religion is bit obvious in this day and age. The thought of a Maori only prison fills me with horror, we are working our way to socially acceptable apartheid system.

If the state school system is broken then National has had eight years to fix it so perhaps this Government might have this in mind. Chartered or academy schools in the main do not work as well as properly run State schools.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11762756

The moment you use the words "left" or "unions" it becomes obvious you have lost sight of the real problems and as my grandson goes to an academy school I feel qualified in my opinions. There is also the social stigma that is developing about the "special" schools.

Lord Egbut

Anonymous said...

Veteran..."as you from an ideological time-warp wedded to the socialist mantra of a one-glove fits all policy.".........that is 1960's mantra if ever I heard it.

This not about schools, it's about a Labour initiative so talk it down whether there is any merit in it or not and your post lacks any evidence or links..... Read the following and comment. Try and overlook the politics.

https://saveourschoolsnz.com/2014/01/07/virtual-classrooms-charter-schools-profits-and-the-education-madness-of-global-reforms/

Lord Egbut

Snowflake said...

Typical right-wing hypocrisy. This feeble attempt at privitizing the school system is what’s ideological. Akin to the failed attempt to privatise prisons. It’s based on the fake premise that the private sector, when driven by dreams of profits, can deliver paradise. In this case, to hide the flaws, charter schools were overfunded, cherry-picked students and hid from the normal accountability mechanisms. It’s ideological though, so everything’s permitted, right fellas? Plus some of your chums might get rich. But yeah, Maoris and all that, right PMS?

Psycho Milt said...

...the socialist mantra of a one-glove fits all policy.

That's rich. Back when people on the left first started setting up special-character and alternative schools within the public system (which they've been doing for a long time now), people on the right were outraged and demanded "back to basics" with schools concentrating on reading, writing and arithmetic. But when ACT came up with publicly-funding private-sector special-character schools as a bridgehead for privatisation and de-unionisation of the school system, suddenly the right became champions for alternative education and denounced the "one glove fits all policy" they'd previously been so keen on.

... the high drop-out rate from the state sector of the very kids who flock to chartered schools as offering them a way forward that the state sector can't/doesn't.

Offering it to a tiny fraction of them, the ones who the charter schools think will succeed. And then, if they don't succeed, excreting them back into the public system as waste, so as to avoid damaging the business' KPIs - an advantage charter schools have over the public system that, funnily enough, Seymour and English never ever mention.

The Veteran said...

Egbut ... SOSNZ is the brainchild of John Minto set up to 'roger' chartered schools. It's hardly an unbiased view and has this doozy in it's Mission Statement ... 'that students must be at the forefront of all education decision making'. Bit rich in respect of the students attending chartered schools.

Told you I wuz out of step re Maori prisons but at least I'm prepared to think outside the square. Try it sometime.

PM ... students who drop out of the state school system and who then drop out of the chartered schools system don't go back to school.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for all your contributions, I have learnt a great while researching this from afar. I have no doubt that in the case of education for the coming generations this is the MOST important point to address is, like he economy, equality.
What I don't understand is someone like Adolf troll and Veteran from opposite ends of the educational and economic spectrum never criticising each each other's point of view.

Lord Egbut

Paranormal said...

PM, you're making shit up again. What evidence do you have the Charters 'cherry-pick' and get rid of failures to make their numbers look good. And to be clear a political opinion hit piece by teacher union backed lackeys is not proof.

As for the allegation the schools avoid normal scrutiny - what a load of BS that is:
http://www.ero.govt.nz/how-ero-reviews/ero-reviews-of-schools-and-kura/partnership-schoolskura-hourua/

And to show up the lies disseminated by the leftist sock puppets lets look at the actual results:
http://www.ero.govt.nz/review-reports/vanguard-military-school-29-08-2016/

The real difference between Partnership and Public schools is if a partnership school is failing it's students it is closed. The many public schools that are failing their students are just allowed to continue on their way.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11665124

Sadly those on the left like PM, Snowflake, and Legbut, would rather spend more taxes on ambulances at the bottom of the cliff in the way of support services for individuals the school system has failed rather than accept there may be a better way of teaching those the state school system fails.

pdm said...

Vet your last para at 9.04pm reinforces the point I was making in my original post. The much vaunted (by many lefties) Maori Caucus within Labour has a history of being impotent and spineless. This is a chance for them to step up to the plate - but they won't.

Egbut - As someone else stated in the thread racism is in New Zealand politics by virtue of Maori rolls and Maori electorates and Labour emphasising many times their Maori Caucus. Grow Up.

Snowflake - I doubt anyone is making money from Charter Schools - ask your mates Kelvin Davis and Willie Jackson who have family involvements in ownership of them if their schools are making a profit.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
pdm said...

LOrd Eg - deleted because you offer nothing to the debate.

Psycho Milt said...

What evidence do you have the Charters 'cherry-pick' and get rid of failures to make their numbers look good.

Re cherry-picking:

It's an inevitable consequence of the setup, in two ways.

1. The local public school has to take anyone in its zone, the local charter school accepts the pupils it wants to accept.

2. The people who apply for charter schools are by definition parents who are ambitious for their children's education. Those children are likely to do better than the ones whose parents don't give a shit, regardless of which school they attend.

Also, there's a shitload of research carried out in the USA showing that charter schools cherry-pick the "best" kids out of their catchment area, because that's a fairly obvious thing to do if your contract renewal is dependent on the academic success of your pupils. It's conceivable that NZ's charter schools are run by a more noble and self-sacrificing type than their US equivalents, but I wouldn't rate that as likely.

Re getting rid of failing pupils:
There's plenty of anecdotal evidence from teachers in public schools of ex-charter school kids turning back up at their schools again. There's also (again) the fairly obvious need to protect your KPIs by discouraging kids who aren't likely to pass NCEA from attempting it. That was already happening in public schools as soon as National made NCEA pass rates a performance measure, so consider how much more incentive a charter school has to do that, with its contract renewal dependent on NCEA pass rates.

As for the allegation the schools avoid normal scrutiny - what a load of BS that is

I don't recall making that allegation, but now that you mention it, there's a reason NACT exempted charter schools from the OIA.

Sadly those on the left like PM, Snowflake, and Legbut, would rather spend more taxes on ambulances at the bottom of the cliff...

Unintentional comedy. The biggest factor affecting educational outcomes is socio-economic status, ie the poor do less well at school because poverty involves a lot of things that militate against educational success. Ignoring that and instead claiming that public schools are "failing" those kids, and throwing money at charter schools to try and "rescue" a few of them would be the very definition of putting an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

Paranormal said...

So no proof then PM, just more made up stuff.

How about, those students that are failing in the state school system - as evidenced by the pupils own stories, are succeeding in the Charter Schools.

The OIA is not relevant as it only applies to public entities. However you are nicely ignoring the fact that the ERO, you know that body charged with scrutinising schools, does openly report on them. BTW Snowflake made that allegation. I note PPTA and NZEI are both not open to the OIA.

Again more repeated assumed knowledge around outcomes because of status. Fact is children turn up at school able to learn. Poverty is not as big a factor in educational outcomes as teacher attitudes. Have a listen to a Radio NZ interview with teachers in Otara stunned at how well Donna Awatere's reading programme worked on children they had already written off. Look at the reports coming out of the Charter Schools at children succeeding that had been written of by jaded teachers in the state system.

You PM and your union buddies are a big part of the problem. Children that fail at school now are more likely to have poor outcomes in the future. They are not necessarily having poor outcomes due to their parents current socio-economic status. Your last paragraph is a straw man, and points to a poverty of expectation on your behalf.

Anonymous said...

Deleted because I supplied links that even a blind man could not refute. Happens a lot on this blog....the inconvenient truth folding it's tent in the night.

I never thought I would say this on a blog..... no can't say that, lets try the civilized approach.... https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/18-05-2017/charter-schools-the-case-against/

Lord Egbut

Snowflake said...

Public schools are subject to the OIA, though, right subnormal? I wonder what the charter schools are afraid of that they need to be held to a lower standard? They get more money, are less accountable for how it’s spend and get to pick their students. Feel a finger of the invisible hand on the scale? Laughable.

Paranormal said...

Keep up the lies Snowflake.

The truth is Charters cost millions less (yes that is MILLIONS) than State schools to set up. You are conveniently ignoring the capital costs the government (i.e. taxpayer) doesn't need to fork out. They are funded at the same rate as a decile three school, particularly during the initial growth phase as the role fills out.

They are also subject to the same scrutiny as other schools with the ERO oversight.

What is lamentable is your dogged dedication to union power rather than wanting what is best for children the system has failed and will continue to fail.

pdm said...

Snowflake if you are going to reply show Paranoramal the courtesy of using his correct nom de plume.

David said...

You are conveniently ignoring the capital costs the government (i.e. taxpayer) doesn't need to fork out.

Unless we are talking about a new development, the government has already "forked out" for educational infrastructure. Surely it makes good economic sense to maximise that infrastructure, not duplicate it.

Your continual digs at teachers and unions show where your failed ideology lies - not in what is best for students, but how best to break the power of workers and send them deeper into debt. You have no compassion, you are, as a matter of fact, quite subnormal.

I have no issue with people wanting an alternative to the state provided education, they should be free to establish their own schools, but at their own cost.

Paranormal said...

Interesting David, you talk of failed ideology and yet you blindly support unions that are a nineteenth century solution to a problem at that time. Talk about a failed ideology whose time is well past. They are most certainly counterproductive when it comes to providing a good education for the whole student body.

Having said that I am not totally against unions, as long as they actually provide value. In the past I have been involved trying to help unions grow their base by improving their offering to their members. Sadly all we really see from unions these days is a political/power body with no real interest in their members and, in the case of teachers unions, the students.

And who pray tell made you the boss of how our tax dollars are spent? We all pay tax to have a supposedly free education? Why shouldn't the government use the best available providers, particularly for those the state system has failed? All over government we see private providers being used. In fact ACC only use private providers for elective surgery.

pdm said...

David let me tell you about my most recent experience with a Union Delegate.

In March 2012 I went to an induction meeting for a job at Watties in Hastings through AWF (Allied Work Force). Part of the induction included a 15/20 minute presentation by a Union Delegate. His sole method of referring to Watties management was as those bastards. He must have used that phrase 10 or 15 times in the time allocated to him.

Suffice to say I did not join the union, preferring to fight my own battles if need be.

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

pdm

Did you ask the union rep 1) for a copy of the union's last set of audited accounts and 2) how much it donated to the Labour Party last year?

That usually stops the yobbos in their tracks.

David said...

And who pray tell made you the boss of how our tax dollars are spent? We all pay tax to have a supposedly free education?

Typical ill informed right wing bullshit. "I pay tax, I want it spent on meeeeeeee" is the selfish refrain.

Most taxpayers will be able to find some government expenditure they don't like or approve of, but that does not bind the government's hands. In my case, as a pacifist and a civil libertarian - I don't like to see my tax dollars propping up a military machine that spends most of its time invading non threatening foreign countries, I don't like seeing "my" tax dollars wasted on ASIO, ASIS, Border Force and anything to do with Peter Dutton.



Paranormal said...

David, don't think I mentioned my particular circumstances. And thank you for addressing the issue, not. Clearly you're out of rational arguments so have gone for a typical leftist rant.

So how do your civil libertarian views align with union bully boys stopping those children the state system has failed from getting a better future?

Adolf, we had a union rep visit our workplace a couple of years ago. Even our strongest union supporter colleague was dismayed they sent along such a useless waste of space. His sales pitch revolved around "we can get you a 1% payrise". I did ask how much of our union fees would go towards supporting Labour - stopped him in his tracks.

pdm said...

Adolf I had no wish to speak to him at all and I doubt if he would have understood what audited accounts were.